As we have progressed thru the show, one thing I have become acutely aware of, is that there are many different skill levels, and definitions of what “mastering “ really is, get 10 people and you will get 20 different opinions.
For many its the ability to cut a successful dovetail, others its carving a ball and claw foot, for some its simply getting a board flat and square.
For me it’s very difficult to design shows that encompass all the aspects of it, I initially thought the show would be an evolutionary progression ,meaning, we would consistently be doing more advanced projects, and I think we have, but now I’m beginning to think perhaps we are taking bigger leaps than we should.
We are now working on the Pennsylvania, spice chest, and will have 2 versions of it, an advanced and a simpler one, to try to be all-inclusive for everyone as well as to perhaps suit varying taste, then we go to the Townsend, Tall Case Clock, I am concerned this is perhaps a little over ambitious for many, and will isolate them from participating, not only due to the woodworking involved but the expense and all things associated.
When I was at the met museum , I stood looking at the Goddard/Townsend secretary, http://www.cn-woodworking.com/townsend-desk-with-book-case/
this is a piece that for me, that has been a “must do” , from the first time I cut a piece of wood, and I now feel confident enough to do it, but to put this into a show , it would be a very long build as well it would be daunting for many, so its just not something I think would appeal to all the folks, and from a business stand point I think it would cost us from a loss of subscribers, it’s a hard call.
I have thought about how I could do both,and there is no simple solution, it would be hard to intertwine, the smaller projects with some thing like this, I thought perhaps we could do separate shows, but that really hold’s our hand’s, hard to the fire, that is a tremendous undertaking, and again from a business standpoint, means double the work for the same revenue, I thought , perhaps we could do a seperate show, which would be self funded, and if we had enough to make it worth while we could go that route, but I think in this economy that could be a stretch, so the more I have pondered on this, the more perplexing it became, so I simply decided to ‘shelve’ it for a time, and continue as we have been and not worry too much about it, and allow everyone’s skills to advance at a steady and controllable pace.Perhaps the secretary need to be a DVD’s , or remain a personal thing.
Ok so today, I will be filming more on the spice chest, I was pleased to get numerous emails about the design process of the chest, this is something that hopefully will expand your horizons a bit, and allow you to not be dependent on plans and other’s design’s but allow you to design and create on your own,.
Well its time for the 2nd coffee, and get to filming, , y’all stay warm and safe
One thought is that for the less advanced wwr’s, they can always record the shows for a later time when their ability has caught up. In the mean time they can begin to understand the correlation between the fundamentals of the simpler and more advanced projects.
Doing the Goddard/Townsend secretary on a dvd set sounds like a good idea, one that I would definitely have to get. I remember the last secretary build; you seemed to be getting a little burned out on the drawn out process due to the number of shows. A dvd set would allow you to almost normally plow trough the project.
Anyway, looking forward to a new season,
don
I guess I kind of echo Don’s thoughts. In a former life I had the same situation. Trying to keep it interesting for the advanced folks while not over the heads of the new guys is a never ending tightrope. There’s a business saying “If you’re not growing, you’re dying” and growing means attracting new subscribers – but are the new subscribers beginners or people looking for more advanced instruction? The idea of showing two different versions of the project seems pretty accommodating and a practical solution.
I know I’d buy the DVD set on the Goddard/Townsend secretary. That might be the answer for the more advanced projects. I’m thinkin’ your version of a Maloof chair might be a good one for that, too!
well I agree with both, the hardest thing is going forward blindly, and getting input just doesn’t happen, lets suffice to say , we dont have any politicans in our group, because for this many people to be as quiet as they are, there can’t be
, so we basically have to guess what might be of interest, but so far so good,
I have a couple of thoughts on the matter.
The basics of woodworking (or just about anything) are applicable to almost every project. So you should not feel the need to go over them more than once, but direct new people to the episode/project where you already covered a particular topic. In the case of the Goddard-Townsend secretary, I would think that you only need to cover the aspects that are different than what you did in the slant front build. For example, you can dedicate a show to carving the shells, but direct people to the slant front build for information on sliding dovetails, drawers, etc.
For example, you spent the first episode or two in the tables series on processing wood. I think that you might have been able to point people towards the pie safe series where you already covered that topic.
I think that this way the show can continue to progress and you can get to those more difficult projects. Make sense?
More than a few years ago I watched a series on PBS called Last Change Garage. The first 2/3 of the program went over some basic tasks each week. The last part of the show concentrated on the total rebuilding of a car (more advanced). The rebuld took the entire season. I am pleased with your show as is, but something like this format may please a wider group. …John
I guess the challenge is striking a balance between new content and repetition. Think of it as a school course where at some point you have to think that your viewers have some basic skills and know what you are talking about already.
Charles although I may not build a Townsend Clock or Secretary I still learn by watching the series. I don’t think you should concern yourself trying to satisfy everyone because that’s impossible. I may use a technique you demonstrated in the Secretary build for something completely different so I don’t think you should be too concerned over this. I personally like the smaller builds (Bombe Box, Spice Chest) but no matter what you do I still learn something each week.
“but no matter what you do I still learn something each week”
And that’s it in a nutshell…
I understand the problem. I also understand that you don’t want to leave anybody behind.I for one am so proud of being a member of the show and have learned so much from watching you build. I don,t know where I would be today with my woodworking if I had not had the opportunity to see those basic skills. So I would would not like to see new members not have the same opportunity as I. That being said its also important to keep raising the bar for the more advanced Woodworkers. Hence the PROBLEM. I like what Jacob has suggested. However this is a whole new problem. As I understand it. New subscribers are only allowed to access shows they have paid for and not the archived collection of work So how can they access the basic skills that were gone over in the previous shows.
The show is called Mastering Woodworking with Charles Neil right off the bat you know its going to be advanced if you know Charles work. however he may simplify it . They are still works of art.
One suggestion is, Several years ago Charles use to offer classes Woodworking 101, 201, and Advanced. Instead of a DVD collection of the Goddard,Townsend work which would be rather large ,I would imagine.Why not a DVD set of Woodworking 101,201, and let them join the show for the more advanced builds and techniques. This would free you from having to explain how to ever little detail other than where and when to do it.You could offer this DVD set to show members at a discount. Once they Have it,you would be able to reference them routinely. I think this would move the builds along faster. As a result more time could be spent on other areas.
John McD
New members (like me) can’t access the old shows online, but we can buy them on DVD – which I did.
Ok. Here is where I am on this. I for one cannot build that clock . When we were brainstorming I stated the the value of the clock build for me would be to observe and pull techniques that would be usefull on other projects. It’s a project size issue for me after all. The spice chest is something I am probably able (and am anxious to try!) to do, but this clock would tie my shop up forever and I like my gratification a little sooner than that. I am with the group no matter how you decide Charles, but the clock build would be pretty much as an observer taking close notes.
Just as a side note on this subject. I have already been considering if there might be a way to integrate a smaller clock into the spice cabinet case. This came from your mentioning that the round top on the spice cabinet could be kind of a practice for the one on the clock. Like I said, I’ll be along for the ride no matter what. I also vote for maintaining the current format of what we are doing is what we are doing. Joe DeLong
I’m in this for the long haul I always liked the mastering part I just heard someone say the reason they call in woodworking is because it is work and something you have to have a desire to learn and for me it has been hard learning some of the things but I’m getting there. I haven’t built a lot of your projects but I have some fine figured MDF cabrole leg, some dovetailed strectcher into a highboy leg, some dovetailed drawers all made with MDF. My goal is when I need to build the kind of furniture you are showing us I will do it right with a lot less mistakes. I just realized my biggest problem is staying focused on the task at hand, I think if I can master that a lot of mistakes will take care of themselves. I have waited a long long time to learn from someone with your talent and willingness to teach, I have increased my ability and knowledge way more in the last three years than all the years playing with wood. I have talked to quite a few people that want to build furniture but are not willing to put in the amout of time and energy it takes to do it well. It is like anything else you only get out what you put in. I don’t know how you address all those issues you mention but just letting you know you have made me one happy woodworker these last couple years and I’m just wanting to learn and this is like an apprenticeship at my pace for next to nothing. I can make mortice and tenon that fit and can actually duplicate them I can use the dovetail jigs I have had for years and never got them quite right, using you dovetail jig has taught me how to better use the Katie jig and the Keller just by you teaching me the basic mechanics of them. I my be a minority but I’m just happy learning what your willing to teach with you building each project. I than incorprate what your teaching into a project that I need might be raised panel doors and maple drawers that would fit into any piece of fine furniture but will go into a bathroom vanity I try to improve on each piece of the project. I guess what I’m saying it isn’t so much the project that is important it is the way it is bulit. The planing, picking the stock what to look for and not, the fixing to build is as important if not more than the build, sneaking up on it has helped me a bunch, build to finish. Just my way of letting you know you are exceeding all my expectations I don’t care which direction you go as long as I can learn. I’m finally making some pretty cool stuff that I though I would never beable to do. Maybe I should have just said thanks Charles but this is my thoughts on the subject.
Thanks Charles and the gang for what you do.
Rob
Charles,
I wrote a reply and when I hit post comment it dissapeared! The thread here is interesting. Advanced and newbies saying your achieving the goal you set out to accomplish many shows ago? And many DVD’s?
You sound interested and excited about the build. I checked out the photos you took. Saw features in the clock that have been in other builds you have done? It might be more difficult to produce a DVD that includes archive footage, but it would be less of you in “On screen” time?
Editing and overdubbing are used to present the visual footage without retakes.
As you stated for some it is just …succeeding in flatening the board?
In my work each new client is a “start over”. I have had to figure that out and Keep it Simple Stupid, or I get a deer in the headlights look. LOL
Life’s problems, chores, and lack of money have kept me in the beginners class. But I use what you have taught me to improve my workmanship. Had to plow snow, clean off cars, and today do billing. Watched the 4th disk in the “Chair Building DVD” and the ideas and suggestions are great. But it’s gonna be awhile until I get there. I also have to get into the box DVD.
Go with what works for your passion and your pocketbook. Today I have to tackle insurance billing. AGHHHHH!
Tom
Charles, My thoughts can be summerized with a bullseye. In this case the center is the hard core, those that want “fine craftmanship”, challenge me projects. The farther away from the “bullseye” you get, the less “fine craftmanship”. All of us want the bullseye but the fact of the matter is — not all of us can obtain the bullseye. Some of us realize it and some don’t. The business decision is how many people “want” the bullseye bad enough to pay for it; either in subscriptions to just watch, tuition to a class or hours in the shop. The closer to the bullseye, the less folks are going to pay for it — just as the farther away from the bullseye, the less. So to me there is a business decision that has to be made — do I want a less experenced crowd or a more experienced group. I believe you can have both — but not in the same show — maybe a spattering of each but not both. As you get deeper into the fine craftsmanship more and more will drop out, IMHO. I love what you do — along with others who have posted you challenge me and you teach me. I just wish I lived closer to you.
Hi Charles, a tough decision, i would be happy to purchase the townsend secretary on DVD.
This is the area which is really starting to inspire me.
Looking forward t the longcase clock.
alan
Charles,
A lot of good ideas here. Also a lot of statements about how good you are doing in teaching and inspiring us all. I have been a member since the beginning and have only started building some of your pieces with the tables series. Two small tables later I am into a mahogany Hunt Board. I’ve been building a lot of other projects, and not one of them doesn’t incorporate things I have learned from you. My quality of work has jumped significantly. There is no woodworking project I would not try now – if I have a need for it or place to put it. I have been exploring veneering and inlay work after some inspiration from your previous projects. I will be building three Spice Boxes. I have two daughters and daughter-in-law who would love this built as a jewelry chest.
I do think a basic skill set library available to any subscriber would work well. You might do a quick intro to each of these, but Sherri and Crystal only need to go back through previous episodes and extract the necessary video footage. It needs to be well indexed and you would reference the appropriate video during portions of the build. It would allow you to move on with new techniques without leaving the new subscribers behind. Some may need the library, others may not. I go back and review techniques from earlier episodes frequently. Yes, I have listened to you on prepping stock more than several times, but each time I come up with another idea or trick to incorporate in my skill set.
Keep moving us forward with new and more challenging projects. I will not likely ever decide to build a Goddard Townsend piece, but I am sure I will learn from watching you do it. I want to learn how to carve – so the secretary would be very interesting for me.
Marty
Charles, first off thanks for all the time and effort you put into your show. I have learned more in the last couple of years than in the previous 30 years. Staring with the Hancock Clock, I have steadily increased my woodworking skills past where I ever thought I could go. My budget has also gone to hell in a hand basket also! Ha.
I think that a beginner DVD set might be a good idea for new and novice subscribers also. Although I enjoy the small projects, I do prefer the more complex builds. I personally would love to see you build the Goddard-Townsend desk. I have admired this particular piece of furniture for many years. It is truly outstanding. I have been with you since the beginning of the show and will continue to subscribe no matter what you decide to build.
Wayne Raley
I think in the case of the more experienced woodworker such as those who do this work full time or those who have done this for years whether for hobby or otherwise..that there are things that can be learned from both projects.. I think in my case.. having done casework and other complicated pieces.. and those who have a wider knowledge of woodworking.. having you film and show the very complicated parts of the build.. showing parts that most advance woodworkers already know might not be followed as well by the advanced guys, but the newer woodworkers could and would benefit from it, but you have the secretary build on DVD that could bring them to speed if they need be.. the spice box is a great all around build that incorporates a little bit of everything in it that is beneficial all around too.. learning tricks and tips of that spice box that can be use on different pieces is a big plus..shortcuts that streamline techniques is what most of us are looking for..at least I know I am..
All good points made. I agree that I would love to see the clock and the secretary both. I Love learning new aspects of the craft. I consider it having the fire in the belly to learn harder and harder things. That is just me. I am not content to just build a clock, I want to build the best clock I can. Love what you have shown over the past years, please keep it up. bob
I’m in the nutshell group, too. I like the way the show’s going and I learn something new with each webisode. I also have all of the DVDs so that I can reference them when needed. Beginners that join realize that they need to “catch up” by watching the previous builds and most if not all will do so.
What if you “rated” each build as Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced, where Advanced builds didn’t linger on specifics such as “how we did the dovetailed drawers”, etc.?
Like so many have referenced THIS IS THE PLACE TO BE!!! Lets face it; we have all been to the other sites .We all know what’s out there. (Not to shoot any of the other sites down). But if you’re into Woodworking and want to bring your skills to levels you have only dream of. Then you’re in the right place. It’s just that simple. It really doesn’t matter the level of the build. There is always something to be learned. I am still fascinated with each and every build. The tip and tricks learned here are applied to all of my work. This is the best TOOL in my toolbox.
John McD
I agree with what alot of people have said. Apparently we are all here to “Master” our woodworking skills.Be it a beginner or an experieced woodworkers we all can or want to learn more. I have learned a tremendous amount from Charles and this site. I personally haven’t built any of the projects yet, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t utilized any of the techniques Charles has showed during the builds.I do want to build the Secretary and eventually the clock, but my skill levels aren’t quite there yet. That’s not to say I didn’t learn anything from the build. I did!!! I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do Know that from time to time I do need a refresher on some of the basics. Maybe I didn’t catch something the first time or am just having a hard time. I am by no means a professional. I am just a hobbyist who enjoys being able to build when I can get the time.That’s the beauty of having a site like this. Charles covers it all from the basics to the advanced. and if I feel the need to revisit a certain subject or technique I can at any time. Having an invalubale resource such as Mastering Woodworking has built my confidence level to the point where I am willing to build things I never thought possible before. Basic woodworking DVDs would be a great idea. The downside to that in my opinion is that if I am watching a build trying to better my skills and have to stop to go watch another DVD to understand what is going on would take away from the build, and/or dissuade me from ever trying to build something like that because I don’t feel I know enough to do it. It’s a tough call for Charles to make. He has to appeal to the masses to be sucessful, yet be interesting to the advanced woodworker to keep them coming back. I know I wouldn’t be the woodworker I am today if it weren’t for Charles and the people on this site, So if it were available to me why not make it available to new people who don’t know as much and are trying to learn. Isn’t that how most of us got where we are today. If the information isn’t available how are any of us going to get better. This is the site I joined and frequent more than any other soley because this is where I have learned the most. I watch every week and am amazed that I learn something every episode. By far some of the best money spent on woodworking to date. I will continue to watch, learn, and hopefully build whether it be a simple box or the Townsend Secretary.
Where to begin? Following along with some of the guys out there has really given me the incentive to try projects and techniques I would never have attempted. Starting to build things, being able to share them with friends and family, is what it’s all about! The art of challenging yourself working in wood is just the tip of the journey.
Being a member of Charles’ guild has given me the confidence to try to do things I would have NEVER done before. Even as my skill levels are not yet there ( today I started my dovetailing experience), the gentle guidance and warm manner of your teaching us to think is the driving force behind trying new things!
Charles, you have a wonderful way of teaching and inspiring those of us who have the desire to take on a new project. That said, I feel you give the more experienced among us the benefit of your years doing it. I have read comments from some well respected guys on Lumberjocks, who write that they learn something new each time they watch you.
The value of what you share with us is tough to measure. Let’s just say that I too will continue to watch, learn, and build. Continuing this experience is most fulfilling.
I remember back when I was in school, every year we would go over the basics in certain subjects before we began to learn the new and more complex teachings. Why? To keep all these other things fresh in our minds so they were second nature when it came time to employ them in other lessons.
Really, how many of you that haven’t used trigonometry since high school still remember how to do it properly? How many of you can even do long division without a calculator? There are a lot of basic math principles that I guarantee many of you that don’t use it all the time have likely forgotten.
Woodworking is the same way, and you have to remember, some subscribers are new to woodwork, and some may not get a chance to work in the shop all the time. Some may be returning to woodwork after several years.
All these “basic” skills that Charles covers are valuable skills that all of us either will use or should know, and if we don’t use them all the time, going over them once in a while in the show is a good way to keep it fresh in our minds.
I, for one, turn a lot more than I build, and I mean a LOT more. I likely turn 30 or 40 pieces for every piece I build, and sometimes more if I get into a big run of pens. So I don’t cut dovetails all the time, I don’t lay out mortise and tenon joints every few weeks, and I sure don’t design a new piece on a regular basis. Yet these are all basic skills that I know I need. And going over them in the show, even if it’s just a quick walk-through, helps me remember all the steps involved and keep it fresh in my mind.
I like the show myself. I do wish at times the pace was a bit faster, but sometimes I wish I could see more of a certain area. But I deal and ask questions when I need to.
Kenny
Maybe, as a possible solution, in the beginning of a new build Charles could do double episodes for the first two weeks to cover all the basics for us newbies and get that out of the way so he can get to the “good stuff” for the more advanced folk?
I do feel we should continue to get into more advanced projects though. Regardless of if I can afford them of not, I still gain knowledge that can be used on other things I make.
Like the clock, for example, there is no way in hell I can afford to build it. I couldn’t afford the clock works, never mind the rest of it. But I would like to learn how to make many of the elements that go into it, like the quarter columns.
If we stop looking at the builds as the piece that is being built, and look at it more as learning to make the individual components or “gaining skills”, then it makes a lot more sense to keep pushing forward.
Just like Charles said about tables, once you learn how to build a table, you can transfer that into other pieces that are built the same way. This is the same for everything you learn, just apply the skills into whatever it is you happen to be building.